Federica Santoro 0:20

Welcome to Drug Safety Matters, a podcast by Uppsala Monitoring Center, where we explore current issues in pharmacovigilance and patient safety. In this episode, we dive into the field of science communication. Why would you, as a scientist, want to communicate your work? And how can you do it most effectively? My name is Federica Santoro, and my guest today is my colleague Matthew Barwick. Matt is the video producer here at UMC. He also works behind the scenes of this podcast. So I am thrilled to have him in front of the microphone for once. Matt attended the Global Science Film Festival in Switzerland last year. So we'll be talking to him about that experience and more generally about the power of film to tell stories in science. So welcome Matt. It's a pleasure to have you on the show today.

SPEAKER_04 1:17

Hi Federica, thanks for having me on the pod.

Federica Santoro 1:20

So, first things first, what do we mean by science communication?

SPEAKER_04 1:25

As members of the global communications team here at UMC, it's our challenge and our mission, I guess, to communicate our work to a broader audience. This is the essence of science communication, to communicate science effectively within the scientific community, but also bridging that divide between expert knowledge and the public consciousness and understanding of science. When I was doing some reading around this topic, I came across a simple acronym in an academic paper which I think distills what the goals of science communication should be. So the acronym is AEIO. So A is for awareness, E for enjoyment, I for interest, O opinions, and U for understanding. So good science communication will stir all of those things in an audience.

Federica Santoro 2:11

That's really interesting. I'd never heard of that acronym before. But it's an easy way to remember what science communication is all about. But how do you make that A E I O U happen?

SPEAKER_04 2:24

Well, there are two distinct approaches to science communication. The first more traditional approach is a one-way form of communication where the scientist communicates their work to a passive audience who are simply receiving that information. An example of this would be a scientific topic being covered in a film and then screened to a passive audience in a movie theatre.

Federica Santoro 2:44

Right. And is there a problem with that approach?

SPEAKER_04 2:47

While it can still be an effective way to communicate, you're also missing out on the benefits that come from actually engaging with an audience on a deeper level. So the second more contemporary approach to science communication is one of public participation. So this is a two-way dialogue where the scientist is looking to understand, engage, and learn from their audience. So referring to the previous example I mentioned of the film screening, we might instead involve the audience in the process of actually producing the film by way of participatory communication.

Federica Santoro 3:16

And speaking of film, Matt, which is obviously your specialty, you attended the Global Science Film Festival in Zurich last year. Can you tell us a little bit about the concept of the festival and maybe some of the films that were presented there?

SPEAKER_04 3:30

Yeah, absolutely. So the first festival took place in 2017. And the festival now includes both feature length documentary and fiction films with broadly scientific themes. But they also screen short films that were produced by scientists during filmmaking workshops. So these workshops take place in the months leading up to the festival and teach scientists basic communication and filmmaking skills. One of the films that left a real impression on me was The Woman Who Loves Giraffes. This was a documentary that told the life story of Dr. Anne Dag, a renowned American zoologist who researched giraffes in South Africa during the 1950s and also fought against sexual discrimination within academia. And this was the film that actually went on to win the prize for best film at the festival. Another film that really impacted me was a film called Aquarella. So this was a visually stunning documentary of almost no dialogue, which looked at the power and importance of water and how climate change is affecting our relationship with water.

Federica Santoro 4:26

That must have been really eye-opening and I bet a good source of inspiration for your own work too.

SPEAKER_04 4:32

Yeah, it was amazing to see so many great films being produced by both professional filmmakers but scientists too. So it's definitely motivating for the work I'm doing here at UMC.

Federica Santoro 4:41

I can imagine. And I understand that while you were there, you spoke to a few people at the festival.

SPEAKER_04 4:46

Yeah, so while I was in Zurich, I interviewed some of the team of volunteers that make the festival possible every year. So I spoke with Lavinia, Halil, and Daniela about the importance of science communication in their eyes. Lavinia, an Italian PhD student in microbiology at the University of Zurich, spoke about the importance of communicating outside of the scientific bubble.

SPEAKER_01 5:11

This is crazily important. I come from a country where we had several episodes of very bad examples of how miscommunication between the scientific community and the broad public could bring with very sad stories. So I think it's really the time that the scientific community realizes that they are not alone. They have to communicate with people, they are not, they have to make things easier to bring them to the broad public. And actually, I think that the tool of movies, of films is really good because in the end, when you tell a story, you really reach the heart, the soul of the other person. So you have to somehow share your passion, your interest in in science and make them aware of the fact that in the end it is a story where you are trying to understand a bit how their body, their life works, so they are part of science.

SPEAKER_04 6:11

Yeah, yeah, that's great. And to come to a festival like this and to have the opportunity to see so many films that are communicating science in different ways. Do you think films like this can have a social impact?

SPEAKER_01 6:22

I think they can. I think they can uh uh they can have a huge social impact because in the end it it's true that with the methodology of the film you can really reach the person. You can while you are telling a story, you can really communicate, and I think that the visual way is always the the easy way. In the end, what we do when we try to explain science to students is that we draw models, right? So we try to draw something to make pictures to have models. So I think that the visual communication is one of the easiest ways to really communicate science uh in a easy and and deep way.

SPEAKER_04 7:02

I then spoke to Halil. Halil is a former PhD student in evolutionary genetics at the University of Basel. Halil now plays a significant role in organizing the festival alongside festival director Samir Angelon. As a filmmaker, he also teaches on the filmmaking for scientists workshops offered by the festival. So I spoke to him about his experience both as a scientist but also now as a filmmaker too. I was wondering if you could tell me a little bit about your experience and why you think it's so important to use communication and effective communication and the use of storytelling and narratives as Samir was talking about yesterday in in the scientific field.

SPEAKER_02 7:38

Yeah, I I think it's good that yesterday I was in the debate, and now you again you stressed that uh we have to use effective and specific communication and apply it only when it makes sense and for a specific purpose. And uh I just told you before about the experience that I had when I first made a little video about uh my own research, the the research in our research group. And um obviously we already had the data what we were studying and we knew the stuff that we figured out. But then I made this video and I used specific methods to visualize what was going on with that plant at the time that we were researching. And then seeing the video, like seeing the visual information and the spoken information at the same time was just so convincing, it really blew me away. It was so convincing, it was almost impossible to not believe what was presented there because you heard somebody tell you what is going on and you saw it at the same time. It was just utterly convincing. And I think that's very powerful if you can use techniques to really visualize stuff that is maybe not so easily approachable. So in this festival, we're gonna show films that were produced in our filmmaking marathon by PhD and master students mainly. And I mean they are amateurish in a way, but in another way they are extremely emotional, and what I was really surprised is to see the ideas that are in the heads of these uh students and young scientists. That's really amazing. I mean the creativity sh is quite mind-blowing, really. And I think these little movies that we're gonna show here are almost gonna be as impactful as our feature films.

SPEAKER_04 9:39

And lastly, I chatted to Daniela, a Portuguese PhD student in biochemistry at the University of Zurich. She shared her thoughts on why events such as these are so important.

SPEAKER_00 9:50

So I think these kind of events are uh crucial f to bring science to the public. Also because science uh it's a very technical field of work, and I think movies or any other kind of um events that can dismystify science so people can understand it, um, it's actually very important because in the end science uh works for people, for general people. So it's important that the final audience of our work perceives and understands what we do.

SPEAKER_04 10:29

I also met Sengeese, a former economist and researcher within environmental science. Sengeese had participated in the filmmaking workshops for scientists and was presenting a short film, which was based on his research of the melting permafrost in Siberia. I didn't get the chance to interview him in Zurich as he had to rush off to Bern to show his film there also, but we spoke on Skype later on. From a scientific background, how did you how did you find the process? Did you find it easy to take to this kind of visual communication field? Did you have some previous experience?

SPEAKER_05 11:00

Honestly speaking, I had no experience before. I had no clue about it. I was just taking a camera, uh pressing the button, and that's it, the photo comes out. That's again like that's a normal learning process. That's like as a scientist, you're anyway, you need to be a bit uh good with uh technology. You anyway have an idea, you anyway have want to communicate your results to a greater audience, so uh it's a great way to communicate it. It's not very I didn't find it very difficult to uh learn the process. And I also really believe if you can combine art and science, then I think that would be a very, very effective uh way of communicating your results.

SPEAKER_04 11:38

Carrying on from that a little bit, so you you went through the process of producing the film and editing the film, and then during the Global Science Film Festival, you were able to actually present your short film to an audience, some of whom were scientists and some were just members of the of the general public. How was that for you to be able to present your work and to see the reaction to the film?

SPEAKER_05 11:58

In our research group, for example, we have also received uh new collaborations uh through the film because uh when I was uh presenting the film, uh my film, there was uh some other scientists watching it, and then they were like interested what we are really doing, uh this part of the research uh in the Arctic, and then like yeah, we are also doing these and these, and then like uh let's uh let's see what we can do together. That was that was really nice. You look at your research in another direction. That's not anymore just the mathematical formulas or like the models or uh whatever it is. In a way, it's easy to communicate that one because you speak the same language with other scientists, they understand what you're saying, but now you're learning a new language or you can communicate uh your science, and that requires you look at it in your own work in a more simplified way. Sometimes then you can really uh simplify it, then uh I have the feeling you're having better results, you're having uh that improves your results, let's say it that way. You need to get into the core of your research. This is the core, and this is what I want to communicate to people.

Federica Santoro 13:08

Some really interesting perspectives and opinions there. Thank you so much for collecting all these interviews, Matt. I particularly liked how the PhD students stress the power of stories and passion. I find that people will often view science as a purely analytical, if not sterile, endeavor. But science is made by human beings after all, and when you look carefully you'll find interesting and very passionate stories everywhere in science, I think. And uh Sengiz's interview was interesting from another perspective. It was fascinating to hear him say that communicating science benefits not only the audience, but the communicator. I'm a former scientist, and I clearly remember that whenever I made an effort to explain my research to a non-specialist audience, I ended up looking at the research from a different angle, and that really helps you understand it a little bit better. But uh moving on, Matt, I understand you also spoke to the organizer of the festival, Samir Angelon.

SPEAKER_04 14:12

Yeah, that's right. Uh Samir is the director of the Global Science Film Festival and also a research associate at the University of Zurich. We met at the festival, but obviously he was extremely busy, so we arranged to do an interview when I got back to Sweden. We talked about where the idea for the festival came from, the power of film to bring science to life, and also his drive to teach and train scientists to be effective communicators. So you you've you've gone from a background in science and then you've moved now towards the area of film or narratives, communication. So, how did you come to actually establish the Global Science Film Festival in Zurich and now in Bern as well in Switzerland?

SPEAKER_06 14:57

Well, I I started my career as a filmmaker by teaching filmmaking for scientists at the University of Zurich and at the ATH. And at the beginning we produced films with a scientist, and uh we didn't have a platform to show these films. So it was like okay, we produce something, but we don't have a platform, and that's why we came with the idea of organizing a science film festival. But at the same time, organizing a science film festival to show, let's say, low-quality films like made by scientists in three, four days, it was not an option. You couldn't bring a good audience to these kinds of films. They would say, okay, you can put them online, we can watch them online. So we decided to organize like the global uh science film festival because we wanted to show high, very high-quality films, and at the same time, we put always before each feature film, let's say professional film, we put one film produced by scientists. And I think we were very successful because it's somehow you attract the wide audience by the high-quality films, but at the same time, they have the opportunity to show films with low budget made by scientists. Filmmaking and film format is the future. Today we we hardly read something when you have the option to watch it, and that that's why I think the option now to make films, to show films, and for the scientific community and also for the wide audience, is a really a good option. And if we speak about storytelling, so the filmmaking, the filmmakers are on the top of the evolution, let's say, of storytelling. So if we want really to be effective in our communication, we should learn from filmmakers how to tell better stories. It's not only about making films, it's not only about showing films, but also to learn from filmmakers how to tell better stories. And this is part of what also we teach here in Switzerland. So we teach scientists how to learn from filmmakers to tell better stories, not only to make films, but also to write better papers, to make better presentations. And I think that we have many things that we can learn from filmmakers, not only the technique of filmmaking.

SPEAKER_04 17:18

One point that was very interesting to me and attractive about the festival was the idea of participatory communication as well. I was wondering if you could just tell us a little bit about um how the workshops are designed for scientists and what what they learn within the short period of time and what kind of results you've seen within the workshops that you've run for for scientists.

SPEAKER_06 17:38

Okay, the first workshop that I gave in Switzerland was in 2014, and it was the filmmaker for scientists. And the aim was that they learn the technique of filmmaking. So they start working with the cameras, lighting, sound, but we don't produce films, they only learn the technical part of filmmaking. Okay, and as curiosity, I want to tell you also that it was not good received by the scientific community, the people who organize the workshop, because they said, Oh, really, do we need to teach scientists how to make films? So they said for me, okay, you can teach the this workshop, but we will not pay for you. We wait until we have good feedback from scientists, and if we have good feedback, we will pay for you. And of course, they paid because it was successful, and scientists learned a lot from the workshop. So this was the first one, it was a technical part of filmmaking. After that, we go we we went ahead one step and we made like a video journalism that also scientists can make films as a scientific journalist, and they can make videos from the interviews. And now we teach storytelling science, which is uh totally the opposite to the first one. The first one was only the technical part about camera, sound, light. And this one, the theoretical one, is about storytelling. So, how to learn from filmmakers how to tell better stories, so they don't learn the technical part. And the last one that we make now is a filmmaker marathon. And in this filmmaker marathon, we join scientists and filmmakers, and they have four days to make short films. So it's like let's say it's a competitive uh workshop, but here again, scientists they don't learn how to make films, they work together with the filmmakers. So we let's say that we have uh um uh a lot of diversity from the technical part only in the filmmaker marathon, the filmmaker for scientists, to the theoretical part with the storytelling science, and finally we have the competitive one, which is uh filmmaking marathon.

SPEAKER_04 19:50

I'm interested to know that you know, during your experience of perhaps running some of the workshops and overseeing them, whether you've been particularly impressed by certain films that have been produced, or you've or or you've seen that the participants themselves have actually significantly changed their approach to their own work, perhaps through exploring narratives and and filmmaking?

SPEAKER_06 20:14

Yeah, yeah, of course. They uh first they they come because they are motivated. There's no PhD student or uh postdoc student that they want to lose one week for something that they are not motivated for. Many of them they will even want to change their career, they want to be filmmakers, they want to follow the the path that I the journey that I follow with, and at least if they don't change their career, they will um make films to communicate their science. Many of them they find it also interesting to uh publish their publication because, as you know, now uh nowadays also journals they accept like uh video abstracts. And I I I think as I said before, there's uh before and after of the workshop for many of the scientists.

SPEAKER_04 20:58

Just moving on a little bit to how you feel, perhaps as somebody who works, you know, as a filmmaker who works in science communication and and obviously organizing a festival like this, what you think in the current climate are the some of the challenges that that scientists face in order to effectively communicate their research?

SPEAKER_06 21:16

Yeah, I I think the main challenge that uh of science communication, the correct science communication to the wide audience is that scientists they don't need it. They are not forced to use it. They think that they are scientists because they have to communicate to other scientists, not for the wide audience. So the first challenge is that they don't need it. The other thing that they think that they communicate only with facts, and it you you know that we are in the post fact uh era. Everything is about emotion, it's not about facts. So for scientists, it's good that they have their facts, but they need to learn how to communicate these facts in an emotional way. So I think that we have these two reasons. First, that they don't They are not forced to communicate to the wide audience. And the second thing that they think that they can communicate only with facts.

SPEAKER_04 22:08

For you, as somebody who has a background, initially a foundation in science and worked in science, and you've transitioned into filmmaking and communication. What advice could you give to somebody who was perhaps a little bit reluctant or put off by the kind of technical aspects of filmmaking?

SPEAKER_06 22:27

Today, uh technical aspect of filmmaking is not that difficult, as you know. It's easy to make film, it's easy to uh if you don't have your own camera, you can rent cameras, you can use your smartphone, they are not bad. And if you if we speak about the technical part of filmmaking, so it's not difficult at all. The difficult part of filmmaking is um storytelling. You you need to be a good storyteller, so it's not about the technical part, and the good things that we have scientists that we have good stories, great stories, and we have also good access to places that were even professional filmmakers they don't have. Like in the last film festival, one of our jury, uh Christian Frey, who is we can say he's the best documentary filmmaker in Switzerland, and he made this film about um Mahmut in Siberia, and he told us that he couldn't go to Siberia because there is like uh there's a military uh Russian military base there, and no one is allowed to go to Siberia, and he was surprised that one PhD student showed a film made by the PhD student in the same place. So he was surprised that a PhD student could make a film where he, as a professional filmmaker, he couldn't make. We have good stories and we have also good access which make us uh powerful.

Federica Santoro 24:00

Okay, so we've heard now a few different voices from the festival. We've gained some insight into the power of film as a medium to communicate science, and we've also understood how important it is to communicate science in general, engaging a wider audience and witnessing the impact that that might have. But Matt, do you have any practical tips for our listeners? I bet there's someone out there who wants to dip their toe into communication but might simply not know where to begin.

SPEAKER_04 24:31

Yes, definitely. There are a few really important things to take into consideration. As an individual or part of a team working on a communications project, we can think about the following points. Firstly, what are you trying to communicate and why? This is something that Sengeese touched upon in our interview. It's important to distill your message into its simplest form and be absolutely clear about your motivation for communicating your work. If you can't say why it's important, you shouldn't expect an audience to think so either. Secondly, who are you communicating with? Always be conscious of how your message might be received by different audiences. You can only hope to tailor your message to a specific audience by understanding that audience deeply. So take the time to understand your audience before embarking on your comms project.

Federica Santoro 25:17

That's good advice. And what about different media?

SPEAKER_04 25:20

Yeah, so I think this is important too, to pay attention to the medium in which you're communicating. Samir talked about this. If you're making a film, then follow the codes and conventions of filmmaking. So that would mean thinking about cinematography, thinking about editing, use of music. If you intend simply to film somebody talking in front of a camera, is it actually preferable to do that rather than just writing an article? So this applies to any communication medium. Learn its rules to fully harness the power of that medium. And lastly, is there an opportunity for genuine two-way dialogue in your comms project? For you as a scientist to actually learn from your audience too. Try not to think of the completion of your film, poster, podcast, whatever your comms project, as the end of the journey. You should always be looking for opportunities to have meaningful dialogue with your audience. I think the Film Festival provided a really excellent forum for this, to have conversations taking place between scientific and creative communities, but also with the public too.

Federica Santoro 26:16

Thanks. That's some really good and solid advice for individuals wanting to get into communication. But what about institutions? What's your advice to scientific organizations that want to communicate their work to the outside world?

SPEAKER_04 26:32

Well, I think as an institution, it's important to teach researchers how to communicate. Don't underestimate the skills involved in communication and specific creative mediums. Good communication skills, in my opinion, will always be a sound investment, with so many channels out there now to engage with the public.

Federica Santoro 26:48

Absolutely. And in a world as interconnected as ours nowadays, I'd say it's essential for institutions to join the conversation. Obviously, we're recording this at a time of a global healthcare crisis. The COVID 19 pandemic is still going on. And healthcare crises like these really show how important it is for scientific organizations to engage regularly with their audience and to gain their trust over time, way before the crisis hits, I'd say.

SPEAKER_04 27:18

Yeah, you're absolutely right.

Federica Santoro 27:20

So thanks Matt for sharing your expertise, and I hope some of our listeners will be inspired to get out there and start practicing their communication skills straight away. Thank you so much for being with us today.

SPEAKER_04 27:34

Thank you, my pleasure.

Federica Santoro 27:41

That's all for now, but we'll be back soon with more conversations on medicine safety and related topics. If you'd like to know more about the Global Science Film Festival or Science Communication in general, check out the episode show notes for useful links. If you like Drug Safety Matters, subscribe to it via your favorite podcast directory. And don't forget to check out our series of Uppsala Reports Long Reads, the best stories from our pharmacovigilance magazine brought to you in audio format. If you have comments or suggestions for the show, do get in touch. We love to hear from our listeners. You'll find Uppsala Monitoring Center on Facebook, LinkedIn, and Twitter. And you can join the conversation there with the hashtag drug safety matters. Thanks again for listening and till next time.